Ask For Better

SEASON 3, EPISODE 4:

If you’ve ever struggled with asking for more money or better terms from a client, this episode is for you. Jenni sits down with Jennifer Barton, a freelance writer, editor and copywriter from New York City. She currently lives in London and has contributed essays and features to a range of publications including The Telegraph magazines, The Independent, Stylist, HuffPost, Metro, Vogue Business, Parents, Mashable and Insider, among others. When she's not writing, you'll find her cuddling and/ or chasing her four children, rollerskating, hunting for treasure in thrift shops, dreaming of new electric hair colors and piercings and reading. She also pays tribute to her late mother through anecdotes and outfits in a visual grief diary of sorts on Instagram @jenbnyc. And you'll find a (much quieter) version of her on Twitter @jenbnyc. Jennifer is in the midst of what Jenni calls a "radical transformation" in her career. She knows she wants to step up and change her client base. She’s craving asking for more money and better terms, and wants to do work that excites her. But often, even if she knows what she wants, she struggles to ask her clients for it. (Girl, us too.) We talked about what makes that risk worth it (for her: creative challenge and enthusiasm) and what kind of work she’d really like to be doing. Jennifer has a few options for how to move forward. Some of her clients will fit in with her new business plan. But if she keeps them, she’ll probably want to ask them for something better. On the flip side, some of her other clients may not fit with her new direction, and that’s okay. Firing clients isn’t easy but it’s one of the only ways you can create space in your business for new direction and growth. To help Jennifer remember that she’s a badass, Jenni assigned her a confidence log (check out our confidence booster pack to get access to that resource and other confidence-building tools).

She also got a worksheet to help her figure out what she needs from current clients, plus a template to use when she decides to send those emails. You can find those resources in our online store as part of the “Ask for Better” Booster pack. Patreon members get those resources for free!

Have you had success firing a client, or asking for something new? If so, we want to hear about what worked for you, and how you convinced yourself to take the risk. Send us a DM or tweet @TWC_pod to share your story. Looking for coaching? Both Jenni and Wudan offer coaching through their own businesses and through TWC. You can also take a self-guided look at your business via our online courses. Listeners of this podcast may also enjoy the podcast Is This Working? Now in its fifth season, Is This Working? is the podcast where two best friends have honest conversations about money, careers and success. Listen wherever you podcast!

Full Transcript Below:

Jenni Gritters- Hey y'all, it is Jenni.

Wudan Yan- And Wudan. 

J- And you're listening to, you guessed it, The Writers' Co-op.

W- We are a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere.

J- As you may know, this season we are focusing on what we're calling The Business Edit. It's live coaching with freelancers just like you to dig into the nitty gritty issues that get in the way of building the business that you want and vis a vis the life that you want. 

W- It's been fun so far! 

J- It has! This season is also funded by you, our listeners, which is pretty cool. And if you're a member on Patreon, you get access to these episodes two whole weeks before everyone else it's a good deal

W- In addition to a worksheets, Slack channel, discounts, all the goods,

J- All the goods. So before we get started today, we want to recommend another podcast to you. It's called Is This Working? Now in its fifth season, Is This Working is the podcast where two best friends have honest conversations about money, careers and success. Anna Codrea-Rado and Tiffany Philippou seek to question everything we've been taught about work, especially because they believe that the quality of our lives is as strong as the quality of our work. This podcast is super aligned, I think, with The Writers' Co-op because that is the tact that we take as well. And Anna and Tiffany are often joined by incredible expert guests. So whether they're talking about issues like productivity, procrastination, burnout, asking for more money, anything like that, Is This Working has all of the tips and tricks covered. So as they say, a better working life is coming your way. You can find Is This Working on all podcast platforms, wherever you are listening to our podcast.

W- I love it. So Jenni, give me the check in How are you? Where are you?

J- Well, by the time this episode airs, it will be mid-June and I will still be in Bend, Oregon because we decided to actually stay for another 13-week rotation. And I'm pretty curious to see what life is like then for me. I'm continuing on this journey of eliminating journalism from my radar almost completely.

W- Tell me everything. Is the grass greener? How's that going? 

J- Ha. You know, like I talked about in the first episode, I think the idea of letting go of journalism is a relief for me. I'm dumping a lot of energy into creative projects instead. I actually just finished a book called The Artist's Way. Highly recommend it. If you've done it, you know why it's cool. If you haven't, I'll put a link in the show notes. It's basically a 12-week setup that helps you think about how to use your creative energy and remove creative blocks. So I'm actually working on a fiction book for fun, which is like the weirdest thing I've ever done. But kind of amazing. Because I'm just writing to write like, I'm actually writing creatively, not for money, I don't even know who I am. It's pretty wild.

W- I think I would pay— is that a weird sentiment? I think I would pay to not be a cog in the machine of capitalism.

J- I know, right? So I'm trying to get about 500 words on the page every evening. It happens more days than it doesn't. And I'm also doing a lot of learning about essay writing, which is kind of what got me into journalism in the first place. So I think I'm actually in a good spot creatively. making time to play actually feels really good. And it's pretty new for me, when you listen back on the first season in the podcast, I think like I was very business brained. And I'm actually sort of switching to this, like, creative brain side of things. So the current season of life is actually just, you know, I have a lot of space for this. It's pretty cool. But I would say it's sort of a major 360 for me. It's different.

W- I actually kind of love that because I think one thing we tried to express here is that business and creativity don't have to be mutually exclusive. And I like how maybe different parts of your brain seem to be converging.

J- Absolutely. I think I saw it as all or nothing. And I'm now understanding that, like you said, business and creativity are both necessary for me to have a sustainable business. And it's been fascinating to watch. So tell me about you. How are things?

W- Well, I've taken a lot of time off. And I have more time off, coming up, which feels nice. And I'm putting a lot of directed energy into big projects, rather than signing myself up for what seems most marketable and in demand. That also I feel like has "what a concept" vibes in a way. 

J- Seriously, we've been talking about maybe naming our podcast, The Anti-Hustle Culture Podcast, and that feels very apt as part of this conversation. Right? So I actually think it's really cool to see our musings from the first episode playing out for both of us in different ways. I think that's neat. But yeah, enough about us. We should talk about our guest. 

W- Totally. Jenni, who did you chat with this week? 

J- This week, I spoke with a freelancer named Jennifer Barton. She is a freelance writer, editor and copywriter. She's from New York City but right now she's living in London, and she has contributed essays and feature stories to many publications including The Telegraph Magazine, The Independent, Stylist, Huffpost, Metro, Vogue, Parents, Mashabl—she's got a great list. She has four kids. She loves to roller skate, which I love. She is big on hunting for treasures in thrift shops, and she dreams of new hair colors and piercings every day. She is a super fun person. She also pays tribute to her late mother through these really cool, it's a visual grief diary, I think is what she called it, on Instagram. And we will actually include a link to that and to her contact details in social media in the show notes because she said she would love to talk about her business. So without further ado, here is that interview. Jen, hi, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op. 

Jennifer Barton- Hi, Jenni! I'm really excited to be here today. 

J- Super excited to have you. I am good. As you know, I'm sitting in my closet recording. So always good in here. Jen, why don't you tell us a little bit about your business to start, like what your services are, what you offer, and maybe what your clients look like?

JB- Sure. Well, I'm a New York-born, London-based freelance writer, I do freelance journalism. I'm a copywriter. So I'll do anything ranging from first person articles to reviews to round ups for all different kinds of newspapers and publications, mostly in the UK, although I'm starting to do a bit in the U.S. a bit more. And then I'll also help various startups. Often, my clients tend to be other moms who I've met at school because I'm also a mom, which I guess is a big, important part of my job description. So I tend to do lots of things, helping with their websites, copywriting, press releases, that kind of thing.

J- That sounds great. Tell us a little bit about your setup and your kids and your schedule, like what that looks like at the moment.

JB- So I have four kids. They're young. my eldest is 10. And then I have an eight year old, five year old and a three year old, so I get chaotic. I think I love the chaos. I love being with my kids. And it's always been really important to me to try to be with my kids as much as possible. Although I think the counter of that is that might be one of my difficulties in running my business that I feel like I'm often there's a real push and pull for me and I'm not very good at setting boundaries. So I often find that, you know, my work and parenting life is sort of mixed up together in a way that is maybe causing some stress. 

J- That resonates with me very much. I think, especially with the past year with the pandemic, it feels like any semblance of work balance, you know, work life balance divide has been absolutely exploded, at least for me.

JB- Absolutely. Especially when everything is happening under one roof. Right? It makes it really difficult. And I think I'm a natural people pleaser. And I find it really difficult to say no anyway. So I find that I tend to just say yes to everything. And then I end up in these situations where, on the surface, it looks like I'm working, I'm happy. And actually, the reality is, I haven't really negotiated my rates, I'm not being paid very well, I'm working too many hours for too little pay. And I'm might not actually be getting that job satisfaction and then feeling guilty for not having that, but then also leaving the kids. So I'm experiencing that quite a lot over my career, which is now sort of... My career has also spanned, I guess 10-plus years. I haven't really taken breaks. But then also I feel like I've had creative breaks, right, where I've had years of sleepless nights where I've just been trying to work just to get by. And I'm finally in a place where I'm feeling like there's a tingling of creativity coming back. And I wanted to learn how to channel that again. If that makes sense.

J- Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It sounds like you're at a good place to have this conversation. Can you tell me a little bit about your schedule with the kids? Like how much time you have to work, what your childcare setup is, all of that. So we know kind of what your capacity is each week?

JB- Yeah, so we're really lucky in that we have this amazing nanny who used to actually look after my husband when he was a child. 

J- Wow! 

JB- And so she's sort of part-time. So I guess comes about four days, and then about five-ish to six-ish hours each of those days to help mostly with my three year old who isn't in school yet. Although we have also had her helping a bit during the pandemic window when he was in school. We've just gone back to live school in London. So my other three are in school. The thing about the parenting day is my day starts at six. So even before she shows up, I feel like I've had three hours of parenting. And then I have like, three or four hours of parenting even after she goes if that makes sense. So I have like parenting around it. And then I have this time in the middle when I can work.

J- Do you know how many hours a week that maths out to? Is it 20? 25? Do you have any sense for that? 

JB- It's about like 20/25-ish. 

J- I'm running a coaching group for moms right now. And I think this feels very resonant to what we are all experiencing this sort of what you describe as a sandwich of time in the middle, surrounded by parenting. It's a lot, a lot of work. So I think there are a lot of things we can dig into in today's session. But why don't you tell me what you want to talk about, like what would be most helpful to you, as we use this time together?

JB- I guess I've definitely had a bit of an epiphany over the pandemic that maybe just ticking a box and saying yes to everything isn't fulfilling. And that low paid is maybe not the right path for me going forward, because it's making me really unhappy. And it's taking me away from my kids. So I'm trying to find a way to get to more fulfilling work, which I think for me is more features in first person, I know journalism isn't historically well paid. However, I'm so badly paid even in a lot of the other work that I do, because I don't negotiate. And I struggle with a blurriness between when friends ask you to do something, and I'm not very good at establishing myself in a business way with them. So I guess that's been a big problem. And I guess also just negotiating, and also maybe maximizing the time that I do have, which doesn't feel like it's that much to be really productive, and to really just instead of be sort of lost in feelings of imposter syndrome and feeling like, Oh, I'm just out of practice. I can't do this. I'm older trying to get back into this, just trying to fight those feelings and actually just work productively and effectively.

J- Okay, so I hear you saying maximizing the time you have, so getting focused out of that, negotiation. And I think we should probably start with talking about saying no, because that one is one that you've mentioned a few times. Does that sound good? 

JB- That sounds great. 

J- Okay, so let's dig into the saying no thing, which I think comes up first, so many people, myself included. It is really tricky to say no, especially in an industry that's telling you you might not get more work again. So why don't you tell me, I don't know, if you have an example you can think of? Or maybe it's a client that you're working with that you want to say no to but you haven't yet? Why don't you tell me about what happens for you when something isn't working, and you keep on keeping on with it.

JB- I guess I'll have this sort of conversation in my head about what I want to happen. And then that conversation will never come out of my mouth. So I sort of increasingly withdraw into myself, and I continue to do this work until I actually end up getting quite burnt out by it or feeling quite bad or quite miserable. And then usually my husband is the one who will sort of say, Oh, my goodness, what's going on? You seem really depressed. What's happening? And it's because I've been on some kind of cycle where I've been too scared, as you said, to have these conversations, and actually just too scared to maybe let go of these things that aren't really serving me.

J- Yeah. What's really interesting is that you do know exactly what you want, right? You just said to me that, you know, in your head what you want to happen, which I actually think is very important information. So why don't you tell me what you're afraid of? So if you said no to some of these clients that you said lead to burnout and are just miserable to work with, what are you afraid will happen if you fire them? If you say, I can't work with you anymore?

JB- Well, I do think my copywriting clients at the moment aren't really serving me well, because I don't think it's the best use of my abilities. And I think it's, as I mentioned, it's difficult, but I feel like because it's a personal relationship, I'm worried about the impact of that. You know, it's a blurry relationship. It's moms as well as businesses. And so that's a bit awkward. And then I think I'm also worried about where the next thing is coming from. I think in my head, I have this real mentality, I had my first child when I was in my 20s. And I think there was definitely that mentality that you say yes to everything, because we really need the money so desperately. Now I'm a little bit older. And I also understand that it's more important for my headspace to be in the right place, and to be able to say no, and to work less, but to work smarter, for more money. I just don't think I'm very good at finding those opportunities, maybe? I don't know.

J- Yeah, let's talk about that in a little bit. I actually think that might not be true. But I hear you actually saying a few things very clearly. The first is that you don't want to work with these copywriting clients anymore, or at least the ones you currently have. Right? Tell me why. Why aren't they serving you?

JB- Well, one I feel uncomfortable with because I'm being asked to do a lot of social. And social media is not my background. And it's something that personally I've only just started dipping a toe into. I'm having fun with my sort of personal Instagram account. I'm doing this kind of bizarre but healing thing where I've dug up all of my mother's clothes, and I'm wearing her wardrobe and I'm having fun unleashing creativity, and that's really helping me through my grief. But I don't feel confident or I don't really want to do this on a professional level because I have no idea what to charge. I have no idea what the client is looking for. You know, I just feel like there are a lot of questions and I don't feel I'm necessarily getting the answers. There was also a blurry period where I was getting messaged at all sort of times of day and night and weekend. And that made me really uncomfortable. And because I'm not good at boundaries, I kept on saying, Yes. I know that I sort of set that trap because if I'm saying yes then of course they're going to keep on doing it. And so I think I'm just uncomfortable about where that's gone. There's another example where the person I'm working with is really nice. But there's another person involved, who is really negative. And I just feel like I'm in a place in my life where that negative energy is not serving me. And it's one thing if it's an article that I haven't delivered properly, and I need to work on it, but this is something where it feels like I've sort of said yes as a favor. And so I'm not sure why I'm doing it, because financially, it's not that great again. So I think these are sort of the issues.

J- Yeah, absolutely. So the negative energy, I have a no drama policy in my business, like I won't work with clients who are dramatic, because it causes me a lot of anxiety. So I think that is completely valid. I hear that they're pushing your boundaries in a way that's actually not great, by reaching out at weird times. And also that the style of work isn't really a match for what you feel comfortable doing. Right?

JB- That's what it feels like to me. And also, I think I'm confused. How do I find like a right hourly rate, or even day rate to set? Because I think that's another thing wherever people say, set your rate, and my instinct is to say, "I don't know." That makes me stressed out and uncomfortable because then I end up low balling. And then that's part of the vicious cycle where I feel like I'm not valued.

J- Yep, absolutely. So we need to define what your value is, right? I think that's the first step here, which is going to require some math. But before we do that, I actually want to know what your rulebook is for a good client. So like an ideal client that you want to work with, one of the things you said was you don't want to work with people have negative energy. So it sounds like you want people who have kind of positive, vibrant energy. But what else makes someone worth working with, whether it's the style of work the project or the person?

JB- I really appreciate when someone is passionate, and when they deliver feedback, but that's feedback that's actually constructive and helps me bring out a better side of my writing to help highlight what they need. Rather than it's just to put someone down, which unfortunately has happened a few times, which isn't really that helpful. And I like it when I feel like I can see the us working together and my writing is bringing something and it's helping their business come alive in whatever way. That makes me really happy.

J- So where you can see the impact of your writing. That totally makes sense. What types of work? You said feature writing and personal essays. But is there anything in that sort of copy area that you also find super fulfilling or interesting or fun, whether it's a topic or a style of writing? 

JB- I used to love doing fashion writing, and I used to do loads of it. Fashion copywriting is even more terribly paid than any other kind of copywriting. But that was another job that I eventually had to stop because I was being so terribly paid for like 10 hours of being chained to a desk. But I could write just these really witty, wonderful things about fashion and just sort of approach it in a different way. And I absolutely love that. So I think there's an element of what I can be creative in the copywriting that I really enjoy. And when it's about a topic— I'm really passionate about sustainability and stuff. So that kind of thing, discovering something new, or things that help parents I really like too.

J- Great, okay, tell me how you want your client to interact with you. So like, when would they email you? Or would they call? How would they interface with you?

JB- I guess they would email me during office hours, even if those office hours are sort of nine to seven, I could handle that. They wouldn't be texting me at 9:30pm, which is sort of what's happening. 

J- What are your office hours? 

JB- It's probably another thing I'm doing wrong. But I respond to everything instantly, I think because of my sort of panic mode. So if I get an email at 7am, I might respond to it then even though of course, I'll have you know, three children on me then. So I shouldn't be doing that. So I think that's something I need to work on.

J- Yeah, that might be something that's useful, right? I will also say you're not doing anything wrong. This is actually just sort of survival. Freelancing has no rules, which means you can't do it wrong. You might be doing it in a way that's making you unhappy, which is when we need to change it. But I have clients who love to work from 6am until 10am, right? I mean, I don't know, there's no rules. For you, if you've got sort of ideal office hours, would it be that chunk in the middle of the day when you have childcare?

JB- It would. It would be that school chunk, because I like to hang out with my kids after school when I can. And because I have four, even if I have childcare, I like to try and do like a one-on-one thing or a two-on-one because it's really hard to give everyone their sort of optimal attention. So it would be that almost that nine to three, nine to four would be amazing. If I could get everything done in that time.

J- Okay, so what I'm doing is kind of building a list of your boundaries. This is why I'm asking you all these things. Because you know what they are. You keep saying you don't have boundaries. I actually think you're very aware of them. So part of this is actually sort of getting clear on what they are so that you can communicate it to your clients and fire the people who don't line up with that, which we'll get to in a moment. So is there anything else you want to add to this sort of rulebook? So you told me you want clients with positive energy who are passionate about what they're doing, who give constructive feedback, where you can see the impact of your work in their business, where you get to be creative or learn something. And then you said, fashion, sustainability and parenting are of specific interest and you love personal essays and feature writing. And you want someone who's only going to email you during the school time chunk.

JB- Might be clients who have a budget. So often I just hear, Oh, I'd love for you to do something, but we have no money. And I think that I have finally, after 10 plus years, reached the point where I can't do that to myself anymore. Every hour that I work, it's like, I'm paying for childcare usually to do that. So it's almost not only that, you know, no budget is not going to work for me. I need to learn how to earn better, because I'm paying out to work. So that's another issue that I'm starting to struggle with.

J- Yeah, that mentally is so tough, I find that difficult to, knowing that each hour I'm sitting there, if I'm not super productive, I'm still paying someone. It's like, you can see the money trickling away. Let's talk about rates. Because I think this is another really important bit of this. I'm excited to hear you say that you can't tolerate this anymore, because I think that means you're ready to make a change. So tell me how much you're making now, if you're comfortable with that, and then also maybe what you feel like you need to be making each month.

JB- It's a range. Like, I guess last year I earned something that was like around 40,000 pounds, which I think is probably $50,000-$60,000, something like that, which considering it was part time It felt okay to me. But then when I look back at what I was doing to earn it, I want to cry. And I've actually stopped doing a lot of those jobs, I was doing a lot of shift work, where I was basically trapped to a desk getting a very low rate and having to churn out articles. I eventually in the pandemic just hit a wall with that. And I had to quit everything because I was in such a bad place mentally, feeling so bad about myself and feeling like I couldn't be with the kids. And this is when I was trying to home school. And it was just awful. So I've gotten rid of that, which I feel like has been a big positive for me, but I just haven't taken enough steps because I feel like that was really be probably working for the equivalent of $10 or $15 an hour, which I know is not enough. And so now I'm trying to sort of work my way up. And I know that I'm worth more, but I just don't know what that is. And I don't know how to measure that.

J- Yeah, absolutely. So how much do you think you need to make each month?

JB- In an ideal world, I'm probably making like, $3,000 to $4,000. In an ideal world, that's not happening. But ideally, that would be happening.

J- Yeah, okay, that's a great starting number, I think. So what we can do is we can divide that $4,000 a month, by your 20 hours a week, right? And you're going to end up with somewhere around $50 an hour as a rate to aim for. How does that feel?

JB- That feels good. That's about $25 more than I'm currently getting.

J- Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, the great thing about that number is, I encourage people when they start doing this to start at 50. You have enough experience that I would maybe push that rate, depending on who the client is. You know, if you're working with a tech startup that has a lot of money, then I want you to be charging $100 an hour, but 50 an hour is a really good, comfortable ballpark to use as a metric, right? So say someone gives you a $1,000 assignment, you know, you have about 20 hours that you can dump into that before you're going to be kind of at diminishing returns, right? So that can be a really nice number, also a good number to pitch other people on, I think it feels pretty reasonable, depending on what their business is. So how do you feel about implementing that number? How would it change the current clients that you have?

JB- Would your advice be to go to them and say, "This is the number I need to keep working?" Or is it just to sort of already back away and try and just start looking for new work? And if so, do you have any recommendations of how to maybe start getting those higher paid clients?

J- Yeah, this is a great question. So I actually do like the idea of starting where you're at if these clients feel like people you want to stick with. If they're not abusive to you with your schedule, or using way more of your times and you've promised them or things like that—the things you talked about, you don't love the social media work. So I would not recommend staying in those scenarios if you don't like them. But I think there's something to be said for figuring out your ideal scenario for each client and asking them if they could be amenable to that before you walk away. 

JB- I think that's good advice. 

J- Yeah. So can you think of—and you don't have to explicitly tell me who these clients are—but can you think of a client that it might make sense to do this with? Like one where you could see maybe the work could shift a little bit to make it better? And you could ask them for more money and see what happens? Do you have anybody in your roster that feels like a good fit for that kind of setup?

JB- There are actually a few at the moment, and all of them I'm being paid half of what you just said: $50. And that $50 is almost what I should be low-balling. So I guess a big part of the issue is that I must on some level feel like one of the reasons I'm resenting the work is that I feel like there is a lack of value in this exchange.

J- Which totally erodes! Yeah, it's really frustrating, right? 

JB- Yeah, it is. And it's I think it's one of the reasons I feel depressed, or even if I feel excited about some of the companies and some of the potential work, I feel depressed about it, because I agree to these rates that I should never have agreed to.

J- It's in the past, right? Like I said, it's survival. I think I would notice how you're talking to yourself. Because there's a lot of chastising yourself when you were just doing the best you could at the time.

JB- Yeah, well, this is my other demon I'm trying to emerge from. I've been freelance for a long time. And but sometimes I'm amazing at being a cheerleader. And I'm like, "I'm amazing. I'm doing so well. I'm doing this with kids, and this is awesome." But the truth is, a lot of the time I do talk to myself in a negative way. And I do feel like I should be doing so much better, or I should have that byline or I should have done this, or I should have pitched more. And that's a difficult cycle. And I think I'd be lying if I said that wasn't the case.

J- Yep, absolutely. I think especially for us busy parents, this is like a big trap so many of us are dealing with. And I will say like, this is the stuff that therapy is good for. And I'm sure you know that. But you know, just digging into where those patterns come from, because in my experience, those come from our parents and our upbringing, and you know, that we didn't make those voices up ourselves. And so understanding where they're coming from can help us get a little separation. I will say Wudan and I are a big fan of putting sticky notes up on your mirror that say things to yourself, whether they're reminders or something else. And maybe for you the sticky note is "I did the best I could," or "I'm doing the best I can."

JB- I've gotten into manifesting. So I am putting sticky notes up, but rarely positive messages. So maybe I should start doing more of that. Thank you.

J- Yeah, yeah! So what if you take the things you're asking of yourself and flip them to the positive? So instead of "I shouldn't be doing this thing?" What if it's "I'm doing more of this thing?" 

JB- I like that. 

J- Yeah, it's a little bit easier on the brain. I think this plays into that negotiation conversation quite heavily. But let's talk about how you might bring this up with those clients. You said at the beginning, you usually know what you want but then having the conversation never happens, if you're going to ask them for more money. So where does your brain go when you think about sending these emails?

JB- Oh, it goes and it runs away. And it hides. It wants nothing to do with these conversations. This is a big thing that I was hoping you could give me some advice on because, as you said, I know what I need to do. I know what would fundamentally be more essential for my life in terms of both survival, earning enough, mental wellbeing, and feeling better about my work. And then there's a block and I can't actually execute.

J- Yep, it's being afraid, right? This happens to pretty much everybody in their freelance business. Tell me why it would be worth it to have these conversations, what would it give you?

JB- I guess I'm at a point where I would feel so much better valued if I was making something that I felt like I had come up with that number, rather than it was a number that someone threw at me saying, "We have barely anything to pay you. Take this." I mean, that already makes me feel like not great about myself. So I'd feel like I came into this with some agency, which would be great. And I think I would feel more excited about the work. I think the whole cycle would be more positive. And I would feel better about leaving my kids for that hour or two hours or whatever to do something and to put something out in the world, rather than having this constant conflict in my head.

J- Yep. So you told me you'd feel empowered, a sense of agency, more excited, more in control, like you're taking charge, and you would feel more valued. So somewhere that list should exist so that when you start to freak out about sending this email, you have a sense for what the payoff is. 

JB- Why haven't I done this already? 

J- Because you weren't ready. I mean, right? Like there are seasons in our lives when we're just trying to survive. I think the pandemic has been one of them. You haven't had a lot of extra brainpower or bandwidth to make these sort of very risky moves. Because that's the reality. It is a risk. It's gonna feel scary. And I think the other thing is that there's probably going to be fear in this regardless. And so tell me about a time in the past when you've done something that you were afraid of.

JB- I mean, my entire adulthood, pretty much. I don't know, I lost my mom when I was in my early 20s. And I didn't have any other family. So I think like, a lot of my 20s were very much like, Oh, my gosh, you know, everything is terrifying. And then I quickly started a family, which was also scary, but then that's a fear that I now 10 years into parenting is something that I feel like I can say I'm really proud of myself as a mom and as a parent and of what I've done in these last 10 years. So is that an example?

J- Yeah, so what I'm going to give you as one of your homework assignments is to make a list of the times when you have done something scary, and it's worked out for you. Because I think part of this is gathering evidence for your brain. Say, Look brain, I appreciate you. You're trying to protect me by keeping me in the safe little corner with these lower rates. But unfortunately, that's not going to work for me at the moment. And so your brain kind of needs some proof that like you've done this before. You can be trusted. That's one of the assignments I want to give you is to make a list of that. And it can be work related or not, but just times you've taken a risk, and it's panned out. What do you think in those cases helped you take action? You know, it sounds like it was a risky thing. You knew you were going to do it. And you did it? What was the part that helped you step forward?

JB- I guess there's ultimately doing something because I was driven by excitement more than fear, or passion more than fear. Careerwise I was in these cushy but low paid shiftwork jobs. And I guess leaving those in a pandemic could also be considered a risk, because we did need that money. And that money was coming in, but I left those. And now, even though I'm not where I would love to be financially, I am starting to do more features and first person. So I'm putting myself out there much more. And I guess that feels like a risk. But it does feel really rewarding. Because every time I do it, I'm so excited. And I do feel the thrill of coming up with ideas and researching. And I haven't felt this kind of creativity in years. So that's been really fulfilling.

J- Yeah. Okay, so this is great. So what we need in order for you to get past the blocks and have the conversations with these clients is to feel passionate about the situation, to be passionate about the changes that you're making. And it sounds to me like you're in this sort of period of radical transformation, like sort of coming into this new season. And so I wonder if it might make sense to think of this new style of negotiation as basically a new business setup, right? You're relaunching your business and a new way— to think of that as the reason for these conversations.

JB- Yeah. I like the idea of radical transformation. I haven't put those words in my head, but it feels like something is happening. I can feel it coming, and I need it in a way that I haven't needed it. And I don't know if it's the pandemic or what, but I feel like I want to feel more empowered and excited. I really love my work. And I want to feel valued for it.

J- Yeah, absolutely. I can, like I'm getting a little goosebumps, because I can feel how much you want this. There's a lot of passion here. And you just said that that's the way that you get past these blocks. So part of it is going to be thinking about, you know, building a business is actually creative. It can be. For some people building a business is Oh, I just do what I think people want me to do. But there's this whole creative brain area where it's like, oh, wow, I get to pick the style of clients and the type of work and set this up in a way that feels really aligned and fulfilling to me. It feels similar to me to building a really beautiful personal essay. And I know that sounds kind of nutty, because it's business. But there's something really beautifully creative and passionate about this. And so I wonder if that's the perspective that might help you feel like you can sort of step out with these clients and tell them what you need.

JB- I love that idea, but how would you do that? How do you look at it creatively. Because I feel like I look at a business and I just think, Oh, gosh, I'm overwhelmed.

J- Yeah, because people always think business and creativity are the polar opposites. Tell me how do you dream? Do you write? Do you visualize when you're walking? Do you come up with your best ideas in the shower? Like where are you in space when you're thinking of the things that you want?

JB- I used to be a dancer, so I feel like exercise is a really happy place for me. So I'll be roller skating or I'll be working out and then I have some creative epiphany or I'm listening to the Rent soundtrack or Hamilton and I'm dancing with my kids. Those are sort of my happy, dreamy places.

J- Yep. I love that I've been lately having lots of dance parties with my son and then I'm in like such a good place to think, you know, really playfully and creatively. Kids are so good for teaching us that. So I can send you some business planning worksheets that we have, but what I would do sort of set the conditions for yourself where you get some time and space to dream about what the size and shape of your business might look like. And that means you might go for a run or go rollerskating and then set aside 30 minutes after that to just sort of brain dump onto the page. Like, if you got your best case scenario, what would it look like? 

JB- Okay, so it's almost like I manifest this like what I want? 

J- Yeah, exactly. I used to be a yoga teacher. So a lot of times, I'll have people just sort of sit for 10 minutes and close their eyes, and just envision what it would feel like to be living in that ideal scenario that you've come up with. Like, how would it feel in your body? And for you, right, you already kind of told me what that ideal scenario is when you we talked about some of these boundaries, like them being passionate and providing really good feedback for you, the way they would contact you the hours you would have. So sitting and spending some time where you actually sort of feel like you're living in that setup, and how would it feel? And what would it be like? Maybe you even think about that when you're rollerskating or playing with your kids. But sort of feeling it in your body, I think, helps. 

JB- Yes, I like that. 

J- Okay, we're almost up on time. But I want to scoot back to that kind of practical conversation with those clients to give you some kind of practical takeaways for how to have that conversation. So the first thing I like to do when I'm asking people for more money, is to have sort of a reason for the conversation. So for you, you're rebuilding your business, right? You're changing things. So it is actually, I think, a very natural moment to say, I've restructured my business, I've changed the services I'm offering and my rates are now this, I would love to talk about how we could continue to work together with all of that in mind, and see what they say. How does that feel to imagine saying that?

JB- That sounds a lot less scary than what I would have imagined in my head. Because I think in my head, I was imagining that I would be apologizing while writing the email, which is not the right approach. So that sounded completely like the right way to do something like that.

J- I'm going to send you a script that you can use that you don't need to copy, but that you can use as sort of a guardrail of what I just said, because I often end up sending this to people. But I think the reality is, it's like another person who you know, who you like to work with. And so it's like, "I'm changing things! It's exciting for me. Here are the new rules. I would love to talk about how we could maybe make this work together." And then maybe you hop on the phone to have that conversation.

JB- Can I also say I think I need to step back from doing this work and maybe focus more on this if you need? Can I put that in the email?

J- Exactly. So that's what I sort of mean by these new rules. So you look and you say, Okay, I'm doing these six things for this client, I actually really hate two of them. So you can say to them moving forward, I'm actually not offering those services anymore. But I love doing these other things for you. Could we talk about how that might be possible? It's essentially you saying what would work best for you, and then telling them. 

JB- And what's the worst that can happen? They say no. And then I was unhappy anyway.

J- Exactly. You don't have much to lose. And I think the other thing is, there's sort of a between option of just firing someone or keeping them. It's either having this conversation or sort of doing a strategic delay. So a lot of my clients like to do this where they tell the client, Oh, I'm actually need two months to step away from my work with you, because I'm working on a different project. And that way, you can sort of feel what it's like to live without them. And then you can decide if you want them back. There's always a chance they would step away in that two month mark, but it's a little bit safer. Sort of like putting them on the bench. 

JB- I like that too.

J- Strategic delay, yup.

JB- Do you have any tips for maybe finding these other sort of more passion clients, like where I might go to?I just read about how everything is so competitive. And that's the other thing, I feel so lucky every time I get offered an article, which I know is probably not the right sort of thing. But I feel grateful. And that's why I get stuck on the negotiation and stuff.

J- Yeah, this is that scarcity mentality that like the whole writing industry has. Ooh, 100 people would kill for this. You're so lucky we're gonna pay you $200. And you're like, I guess I am lucky, I guess I'm being told that I'm lucky. I think it's up to you to define. So part of this work of dreaming about what you want is getting really clear on the types of stories that you would like to be working on and then finding people who are working on those. So say, for example, you decide you want to do sustainable fashion writing. It would be thinking about who you know that works on that kind of writing, doing a bunch of research. I always say assign yourself a little research memo to look up like not just the mainstream publications that are covering that, but maybe also some trade publications or university spots or maybe even brands that have blogs. Like REI has a whole magazine. So trying to find places that are a little bit outside the norm because those places are the places that pay better. And then doing sort of a mix. Maybe you do take a few of those lower paid assignments, because you're so excited about it, but you know that the rest of your work is being paid highly enough that you can do that, right? It's sort of a multi-step process of first really defining what you want. And then second, trying to just give yourself four hours to just play around and think and find things and have conversations with people. That's the best way to figure out which pubs pay the most is by talking to people. And then to sort of think outside the box. 

JB- Okay, I like that. 

J- If we were doing another coaching session, I would say, that's what we're going to talk about next time. But we are up on time, we should go. This has been super wonderful. Jen, I just really appreciate your honesty, I think that people are gonna find this incredibly useful. I'm gonna send you an email just like I would if you're a coaching client. Number one homework assignment is to really dream. Dream up what this best case scenario could look like for you. Number two is to talk to your clients, at least the two or three of them that you thought of that you want to push back on, and send that email. Number three, you're going to build up a whole list of proof that you can do scary things, risky things, and come through the other side. And then I'm also going to send you some of those business planning worksheets, just so you can kind of think through them and sort of do a business revamp, because I think that's what you're doing. I think you're doing a life revamp, which is really exciting.

JB- I feel really energized now. It's six o'clock here in London, I feel like Oh my gosh, I want to go and start writing down all of the plans. So thank you. You've given me that sort of new way of looking at things and getting more confidence. I feel like it's been a therapy session. So I appreciate that.

J- Yeah, it's like not therapy, but there are aspects of just being able to talk out these issues that I think are so helpful. We live in such bubbles when we're freelancing. We don't have co workers so being able to just talk out some of the stuff and get it out of your head and onto paper I think is 90% of the battle. So I love that you're excited about this. I would also say us that. So if you want to go after we hop off here and spend 15 minutes just dumping onto a page some of the things that you're super excited about, that is a great idea to sort of capture that passion before you have to run back and take care of kids and all those other things as a busy parent. Okay, we should head out. But Jen, thank you. This has been wonderful. And I will follow up soon with all sorts of fun resources and homework and things.

JB- Thanks.

W- Jen is so clearly ready to make moves. That's my favorite type of coaching client.

J- Me too. I think sometimes it takes a few years of rumbling around in the mud and trying things that aren't working and trying to figure out what you want before you reach this moment of clarity where you're like, Yes, I'm going to take action. And Jen is very clearly there. She's like, I want better for myself, I want more for myself. And that energy is pretty incredible.

W- Yeah, I agree. That motivation is really important, I think, for making big changes, because it comes from within. I also appreciated her honesty about how scary it can be to push back on a relationship with a client as well.

J- I've been having these sort of firing-a-client, asking-for-better-from-a-client conversations a lot lately. And the reality is that standing up for yourself is hard. It doesn't stop being hard. And Jen also has a lot going on with her schedule. She's really busy. But I think what was really cool in our conversation is that she didn't feel like she was clear on what she wanted. But when she was talking about it, she actually was very clear. And I think she's been working hard to get to that point of clarity. So now it's sort of just tacking logistics on to this vision she has for herself, which I love.

W- Mhmm. It was fascinating to hear her say that she figured she'd be apologizing if she was asking clients for a new setup. And that was stressful.

J- I mean, that feels icky. Right? Like, oh, now I'm going to tell you that I suck. And I'm sorry. And I've done you wrong, when maybe none of those things are true. Like, what if it's a conversation, not an apology? Right? It totally reframes the whole whole thing.

W- This is why I like the client relationship/business language. It's very straightforward. It talks about the scope of work. Basically, this language keeps the emotion out of it, right?

J- Agreed. It was also important to me that we figured out what would be the catalyst for her. So when her brain gets overwhelmed with fear and she's asking for more or she wants to fire a client, she said often she knows what she wants, but then she doesn't have that conversation. And so what she told me is that feeling passionate about her project lets her take those risks. And so I think for her, building a business that she's passionate about, figuring out projects that she's passionate about, that's actually the way to take risks. That's how she's gonna ask for more and move through that fear stuff. 

W- Totally. 

J- So we have a few worksheets this week. I gave Jen homework, which we always do. And one of them includes, surprise surprise, the business planning worksheets, which we're always going to recommend. I think that's going to be in every episode. But the reason why we recommend those is because it's all about getting clarity on what you want. So I recommended that Jen do those, and we will link to them in the show notes. But also, because we talked a lot about changing client relationships, we have a few other homework pieces that our Patreons will get access to. And one is a template for sending that email where you ask for more or something different. And then also a worksheet to figure out what more or different things you want. So to look at your tricky clients before you send the email and figure out what is working and what isn't working. 

W- I love this. It's good stuff. 

J- Yep, saying no is really hard. We're gonna call this our pushback training toolkit, teaching you how to say no and ask for better. And we will actually put some of these toolkits from these episodes in our store too, at thewriterscooppod.com with a link in our show notes so that even if you're not a Patreon member, you can download that if this episode resonated with you,

W- I actually find pushing back to be extremely hard, or I did when I was starting out. And, like virtually everything else, it's a muscle. So the more you exercise it, the easier it comes. And we've all got to start using that starting from somewhere, so why not now?

J- Full agree, if you take nothing else from the podcast, I think it's that. You can start now with asking for more. So on that note, I think we're gonna head outW- All right, I'll see you in a few weeks, Jenni. 

J- Kay, enjoy your time off. Bye, Wudan. 

W- Bye.

J- Season three of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. This season is hosted by me, Jenni Gritters and my co-host, Wudan Yan. And the podcast would not be possible without the help of our producer, Jen Monnier and our editor, Susan Valot.