Q&A with Wudan Yan

SEASON 8, EPISODE 1

Welcome to Season 8! We’re calling this the “Year of Expansive Thinking.” This season will focus on how to think big about our businesses, ourselves, and what we think is possible. 

In the first episode, host and executive producer Wudan Yan answers questions from guest co-host Pam Moore about her businesses. 

Pam is an occupational therapist-turned-award-winning intuitive eating coach and journalist based in Boulder, Colorado. Wudan tells Pam more about how her business has changed drastically in the last three years as a result of a mindset shift, what it’s been like to run two businesses, and her goals for 2024.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone. I'm Wudan Yan, and this is the Writers' Co-op. Welcome to Season 8. This season is dedicated to expansive thinking. Literally, I am calling the season "The Year of Expansive Thinking." If you listened to the trailer from last month, you will know that at the start and end of each season that is to come, I will have a co-host to check in with me about my business: how I'm approaching things, my successes, my challenges, what I'm working on and so much more. I'm super excited about this new format. There hasn't been a single episode of the Writers' Co-op that is just one person talking to you, and that is intentional. To me, conversations are so much more dynamic and fun. I also got the sense that you all missed hearing about me last year. Can I just say that the combination of the collapse of Twitter and me spending get another season through-hiking really led me to evaluate whether or not I need to scream into the void? One of the things I had so much inner turmoil about last year was that I didn't have to share everything. It's really reoriented what I share on social media in a very liberating way. And now I'm mostly focused on sharing things that are going to be helpful or interesting to others. In any case, I'm excited to dig into what's been going on and be on the other side of the interview. My co-host this episode is the amazing Pam Moore. Pam is an occupational therapist-turned-award-winning intuitive eating coach and journalist based in Boulder, Colorado. You may have come across her work in places like the Washington Post Runner's World, Self, and many others. Pam is the creator of the Real Nourished newsletter, where she shares evidence-based tips to help women detach their weight from their worth, and the Real Fit podcast, featuring conversations with women athletes about body image, enoughness, and more. I'll put links to all of this in the show notes. Today, Pam is going to be in conversation with me about how my business has shifted drastically in the last three years as a result of a huge mindset shift, and what it's been like for me to run two businesses. Here's our conversation.

Pam Moore- Let's dive into the meat of what we want to talk about, which is your business. You had a remarkable 30-plus clients in 2020, but since then, have whittled that down to about half that number in 2023. So I would love to unpack that. I loved the opinion piece you wrote for Poynter. I don't know if your listeners have read it. But essentially, it ran in late 2021, and it was called "Journalism isn't who you are. It's what you do." And in the essay, you do an amazing job of describing all of the burnout you experienced that came with being at the whim of the news cycle. And how when you decided to let go of that, your quality of life massively improved. And I would love for you to share a little bit about that, in your own words, for listeners who haven't yet read it.

Wudan- Sure. So, I burned out miraculously in 2020. In 2020, a lot of things changed. I've talked about that change a lot. It was the first year I made six figures in my freelance business. It was a very like, amazing proof-of-principle. And by the end of that year, I was so drained. I had 30+ clients, as you said, because so many of them needed news: about COVID, about the protests in the wake of George Floyd, everything. And I aligned very closely with the values of my profession, journalism, in that I wanted to help other people better understand what was going on in the world. And so I just said, yes a lot. And when I worked with a therapist, when I audited my business at the end of that year, I was like, a lot of these things don't work for me. And why am I taking a job for a very well-known national publication at $30 an hour, when I could work like a third of that and make 3x as much, just because that's how math and effective hourly rates work and freelancing, right? And so I took a really hard look at that. And that led me to, first of all be like, my identity as a journalist has caused me to make these decisions. And that led me to burn out. And now I have to view my acts of journalism, when I commit those acts, as very intentional, and like asking myself: What am I trying to do here? What's in it for me? Am I allowed to work at a pace that's going to be suitable for my needs? And so on and so forth. So all of that led to a massive reorientation of my business.

Pam- Mmm. I love that. I love that you mentioned the term "acts of journalism." I have never heard that phrase before it. Did you coin that?

Wudan-No, I didn't. That's borrowed from a colleague who has always described when they do journalism, they are committing an act of journalism. And sometimes they're committing an act of science communication. And sometimes they are committing an act of say, like, professional speaking, right? Like, rather than being like: I am a professional speaker, I am a science writer, I am a journalist, and immediately using the words that bridge it directly to your identity. It's you are a person doing things. And that's how I began to think of myself: I'm just a person in the world doing things.

Mmm. I love that so much. It's hard though, because it's like, the experiences that we have, the training that we have, that does shape the way we see the world and the way we interact with everything. So I can see why it was so all-consuming for you for so long.

Wudan-Yes. And I had to reorient my mindset around who I was, what I wanted to do, and how I was going to do those things. And most importantly, how I wanted to live a more sustainable lifestyle. And yeah, things really had to change, including cutting, like, my client less than half.

Pam- Yeah. So I want to talk about that. Did you have like a system in place to make that happen? Like, how did you decide who's gonna stay, who's gonna go, how to have the conversation: Hey, my rates are increasing. How did that look in terms of like, on a practical level, day-to-day? How did you make that shift?

Wudan-Yep. So at the end of the year, I said, okay, I made six figures this year. That's great. Because in 2020, I also got married. I knew that we wanted nice things. Maybe a house in our future. And I really needed to break up with the part of me that's like, 'yeah, I can live on cheap, because I have my entire life.' And so my needs changed. And I looked at what I made. I'm like, 'I would like to make six figures again. How can I do that by not working 40 hours a week?' Like, 40 billable hours a week, which you and I know, because we've been doing this a long time, that's actually like 50 hours? And that's a lot.

Pam- Or more. At the least, I would say. That's conservative.

Wudan-Absolutely.

Pam- Yeah.

Wudan-Totally. I was like, can't do that. And so I just audited my business. This is through the business audit worksheet that I have created for the Writers' Co-op that I still use every single year for my business, for the Writers' Co-op. And I basically, you know, plug my numbers in, figure out how much time I want to take off, and calculate my effective hourly rate. And then I looked at all my clients, all my assignments, all my services, and calculated how much time I spent and what that worked out to on an hourly rate basis. And that was the basis of my decision-making. Everyone who was at my hourly rate, I was like, great. Game on. Like, let's continue working together. People who were far below it, like, I would say, you know, if I was gunning for $100 an hour, and there was somebody who was $40 an hour, I'm like, that's not even going to get close. I can't get more efficient at my job. Or maybe I can. Like, it depended on the service and the client. But I really looked at things on a case-to-case basis. If there were clients that were at like $75-80 an hour, I would either negotiate for more, or ask myself, how can I get more efficient to hit my $100 an hour effective hourly rate? So that was what I did. And I let go of all the clients who are like, so far away from the mark, which was a lot. And everyone else, I negotiated up.

Pam- That's awesome. So when you did have to let go of the people, or the clients that were nowhere near hitting the mark, did that mean you had to let go of all of your acts of journalism? Or is there still room for any of that? Or are you willing to make a sacrifice and go, okay, I have this one client over here that pays me really well. So I consider that like financing the acts of journalism that maybe don't pay as well. Like, how do you—is there any room for the journalism?

Wudan-Great question. So I was a SAT math tutor for a really long time, and so when I talk about an $100 an hour effective hourly rate, that's an average, right? I have some work that pays a few 100 bucks an hour, sometimes closer to 1,000. And when I do all the math, it works out so that, you know, if I take a journalism assignment where I'm able to make 80 an hour effective hourly rate, that can still get balanced out by more lucrative work. So there's absolutely room and, again, like, what we want to make as an effective hourly rate in our businesses is an average. And so I can go plus or minus $20-25, right, and still be fine.

Pam- Yeah, that's great. Are you using certain technologies or tools to—like, I'm assuming that you actually go in and track your hours and go, this assignment took me X hours. Are you tracking using some kind of tracker?

Wudan-I don't use software to track. So I am, uh, I live and die by my Google calendar. And I do a pretty good job of being like, I started this at 9am. Or you know, if an interview is scheduled, and then right after the interview, I'm uploading it onto Otter, and then playing the tape at 2.5x speed to get the quotes that I need, like, I am able to see where all that lands in my calendar. And so I just add up the different color blocks in my calendar to figure it out.

Pam- Oh, that's really clever. I commend you for that. I have the colors all blocked out in my calendar. But that doesn't mean that like, I don't know, a phone call didn't interrupt me. Or I didn't feel the need to like go walk my dog in the middle of that. So good for you.

Wudan-Yeah, for sure.

Pam- That's awesome. So tell me about what were the challenges that came with going through your client roster, looking at the numbers and going okay, these go. These stay. Like, was there fear that you had to deal with it? Was there a mindset shift that you had to embrace?

Wudan-I was doing everything in service of my mental health and the sustainability of my business, which is contingent on my mental health. And so I knew that if I took on, you know, if I continued on working with clients who paid less, I would be so resentful. And I don't think that emotion has any space in my business, where I'm thinking more expansively. And I know, you know, I have evidence that clients pay me $1.75, $2, sometimes even more, per word for assignments, not necessarily journalism, but just knowing that that money is out there is really helpful. And sometimes the answer isn't like, 'oh, my gosh, I'm getting rid of all my clients. There goes all my income.' It's: 'Well, I have clients who pay me a lot more and are on the higher end of what I need to earn to average things out. So why don't I just ask them for more work?'

Pam- Mmm

Wudan-Right?

Pam- Mhm.

Wudan-Like, it's just math and adding things up at the end of the day. And so I don't have fear. And I didn't fire my clients in any crazy kind of way. Sometimes journalism outlets, I just stopped pitching them. And I know that that door is always open, because I've had a good experience working with that editor, that publisher, and they enjoyed working with me. And just leaving things on a positive note also leaves the door open for me, if you know, suddenly, I have something that I'm wildly passionate about and just have to pursue. And yes, I will take a lower effective hourly rate for it. I can always go back.

Pam- No, that's awesome. So you mentioned sometimes getting paid like $1.75, $2 a word. I'm curious in terms of nuts and bolts, and I think listeners may want to know, too, when you're working with a client, you've had the discovery call, you're trying to negotiate a rate, do you talk in terms of 'okay, this service would be $2 a word?' Or are you more likely to pin down some type of project rate, which you know in your mind ends up being $2 a word, but you're not necessarily sharing that metric with them? Or is it some other way of getting to that number?

Wudan-It really depends on the client and what industry they inhabit. So corporate clients, I kind of just skip the $2 a word situation. I think with institutional clients, trade publications, journalism outlets, a lot of those places are accustomed to that like dollars-per-word language. And I want to speak their language to be taken seriously. And so I will say like, 'my fee for a project of this scope is like x, which roughly works out to x dollars a word,' right? Like, sometimes clients just want to see that. Yeah.

Pam- Yeah, and that can help them go, 'okay, moving forward for a different project of this scope, this might be about what she would charge.' Is that part of the value, that you're not like reinventing the wheel every time you talk about a new project?

Wudan-Yeah, definitely. Mhm.

Pam- Yeah. You had mentioned earlier, like you were asking yourself, 'are there some efficiencies I can add into my system to make, you know, the hourly rate go up?' Can you share any of those with us? Or did you find any?

Wudan-Yeah, many. We actually, the Writers' Co-op, did an event about how to make journalism more efficient. And I can link it into the show notes if anyone is interested in it. But I think freelance journalists often bemoan over reporting a story. And so when I realized that I cannot afford to over-report a story—back in 2020, right, where I was like back-to-back on assignments. That actually really taught me how to be efficient and not over-report. I kind of thought of everything in service of the reader. Like, what does the reader have to know? Like, don't go down the Wudan rabbit holes. Just, just like do everything in service of the reader. And so now, when I go into narrative stories, I just make a bullet point of everything that I think the reader has to know and then answer yes, no: 'Do I have this fact? Do I have this statistic? Do I have the background reading done for this in order to be able to write succinctly and authoritatively on it?' And if not, that is the one thing I'm going to do in the 15 minutes that I have, right? Like, it isn't going down rabbit holes, or just blocking afternoon and calling it research, and hoping that yeah, there isn't like personal scope creep, if you will.

Pam- Mhm. No, that's brilliant. Because it is—it's so easy to get off the topic or just...yeah, you probably pitched the story in the first place because you're passionate about it, but you've got to set those boundaries. You mentioned being an extrovert, and I definitely think there's something to be said for having a really solid community to support you. Are there are people—I mean, I think for most freelancers, like, this $2-a-word situation is, like, enviable. But there's got to be a community of high-earners out there. Are you pretty connected with them, and like, tell me how that looks in terms of how you may lean on other freelancers for support?

Wudan-Yeah, let's talk about how I got to $2 a word, which was actually pretty early in my career, probably within the first year or two. And that's because people told me to ask clients for a certain amount of money because they got it. And as I continued to join different online groups of freelancers, other people would sometimes reach out to me. And they'd be like, 'Hey, your work is really good. Have you ever considered pitching, you know, publication XYZ? They pay $2 a word, so if you ever get a commission, just ask for that.' And I'm like, 'Oh, thank you.'

Pam- Awesome.

Wudan-Thank you for that information. And so whenever I hear that about a place, I mentally bookmark it, and sometimes I should write it in an actual place or spreadsheet that, you know, when would lead me to be more targeted in my marketing and outreach efforts. So yeah, knowing what the scope of what's possible, for me has come from my community. And not necessarily a community of high earners. That certainly helps. But just people who have different experiences writing for different audiences, righ? Like a friend and colleague of mine has written for Bloomberg for a very long time, and that would have never been on my radar. But once he mentioned what they pay, which is quite competitively in the $2 per word arena, I started thinking of my stories like, 'Oh, is there money angle? Can I get, like, that amount of money for my stories? And I don't want people or listeners to think that I am super driven by money. There are other factors as well. But getting paid on the higher end..."higher end" for journalism also enables me to do better work. That's what I want.

Pam- Yes.

Wudan-I want money to do good work. Like, that's where it really comes down to.

Pam- Yeah. And that shouldn't be controversial.

Wudan-You know, yeah. It's my hot take of the century.

Pam- No, I like it. I like it. So you mentioned that you're not all about money, which, you know, we know this. But I am curious, did you do any journalism in 2023, that like, you know, there was a story that just really spoke to you that you were like, 'Okay, I might accept a lower rate for this. But this feels really important. This kind of is nourishing my soul.' What kind of journalism projects do really light you up?

Wudan-I have been really drawn to researchers and individuals who take systemic approaches in solving problems, right? Like, I think one hot thing that's come up since I became a journalist a decade ago, was this concept of solutions journalism that like, 'Oh, don't just report on the news. That's so depressing. Let's report on what people are doing to make a certain issue better.' And one part of it is like, yes, but when I read those solutions, stories, a lot of it just, you know, there's a lot of context that these people have to work in. And they're not all necessarily systems thinkers. And so I published three pieces of journalism last year, two of which were definitely systemic approaches to very entrenched issues. One was lead in food, and the other was a lack of social and health support for people living on the margins, on Medicare. And so I definitely did what I had to for the stories. The story about lead and food took me seven years to report, and I needed to get that out the door for my ego.

Pam- Wait, did you just say seven years?

Wudan-Oh, yeah.

Pam- Whoa, that's mind-blowing. Can you share a little bit more about that process? And, like, were you researching it and reporting it before you pitched it? Or was this, like, something you were working in collaboration with an editor on for years?

Wudan-In 2016, I got Michael Pollan's Food and Farming Fellowship on a magazine story that I pitched about food fraud. And a lot of people may not know that I had a past academic career as a cancer biologist and pharmacologist, and as part of my college honors thesis, I was looking at how turmeric had these different compounds that could have anti-cancer properties. And so when I went on my food fraud journey, I was really struck, in 2016, by the prevalence of lead in turmeric. The FDA in the US, the Food and Drug Administration, had issued all these alerts about lead and turmeric. And I was like, 'What's going on?' Michael Pollan's fellowship gave everyone who received it $10,000 just like to live on, to use for reporting expenses. And I was already in Asia on another big investigation. I was like, 'I'll just pop over to India and see why this one company has repeatedly been on the FDAs essential, like, shitlist.' And I went, and my reporting didn't bear out a cohesive story. But my interest continued, and, came home, was a little dejected. I mean, I was so drained at that point, too. I just set a Google alert on lead and turmeric, tumeric adulteration. Let it sit. Got, you know, read my digest every week. And in 2019, I read about a researcher who was studying this issue in Bangladesh and was taking a very systemic approach. And when her news media circuit died down, I reached out to her, I'm like, 'Oh, what are you doing about this?' And she, too, had a very broad vision of how to approach it. And I was like, ;Oh, my God, like, this is it.' Then, you know, we all know the pandemic happened. And it took me three years to get over there. And I finally did.

Pam- Wow. Is that, like, the hero's journey of journalism?

Wudan-I hope not. Like, I think, if there's a story to tell...there will always be a story to tell. Like, some different version of it, right? Like, I don't think anything is immediately dead on the vine, if you can't sell it immediately. Stories change over time. And I think there is also a lot of interest in viewing that change and letting a story just like simmer and see how much actually moves. And how little actually, you know, changes in practicality.

Pam- Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, congratulations. That sounds like it was a really rewarding experience, getting it finally published.

Wudan-Yeah. Thank you. Very relieved about that

Pam- Radically shifting gears here: Can you talk to listeners about what it's been like to run two businesses? For listeners who may be new to the show, what are they? And share with us some of the highs and the lows or challenges that come with having your attention divided?

Wudan-Yeah, so as of a year ago, I came into full ownership of the Writers' Co-op. And that's on top of my narrative writing business. So that was a big shift, and one that I was not anticipating. And at first, I will say, it's very challenging. Because how many freelance writers, mostly journalists, mostly people who are so, you know, dedicated to the craft, how many of those people are really running two businesses?

Pam- Yeah.

Wudan-Very few.

Pam- Yeah.

Wudan-Very few. And I'm not just saying like, 'Oh, I'm running a freelance consulting business, and I also run a free newsletter for, you know, creatives on the side to grow my consulting business,' right? Like, I see that as convergence. That's one business, you know, the newsletter does—if you're not making money off of it, and it doesn't have a business plan, and it's not an LLC, that's not a business to me. Very few people run two businesses. And so my first instinct ,whenever I'm in a situation of like, 'ah, what do I do? Why am I here?' is to see if other people have taken that path before me. That is how I basically broke into journalism without going to J-School. And so when I looked for people running—who are dual business owners, I was like, there's really no one. And so I had to stop panicking. I had to stop looking for other sources of inspiration or people who had laid out that path for me, and just like, figure it out. And earlier in my career, I had worked with a business coach who was really big on how to run a business that preserves my mental health. And so I run a lot of experiments in my business. And so the first thing, I was like, 'Okay, well, two businesses, I really don't want to spend more than like, one full workday on the Writers' Co-op, because they still want my narrative writing to be the bulk of what I do.' And so Thursdays now are my podcast days, where I think about marketing and content and do everything on the back end that, like, I can't delegate. That has actually been helpful. You know, at first, I was like, I do need a full day on Thursday to ideate, to produce a series, come up with event ideas, so on and so forth. But I felt like that was the right balance. And eventually, it became half a day on Thursday, I realized I don't need a full day, right? Like that was the experiment. Do I need a full day? Answer: No, I need a half day. And so that really helped me see where the balance of my time goes. I mean, I work a four day workweek, so I don't have that much time. And so playing around with Tetris-ing my hours in a way that could make sense for me, was very fun. And yeah, I think, like, it shows me that if I have to create space for something big in my life, I can do it. It just requires intention and like, blocking it out in a way that feels manageable and doable and not resentful for me too.

Pam- Mhm. Mhm. I love what you said about how you saw it as an experiment, because I think people—or maybe just me—but people get caught up in like, 'Will this work?' And it sort of feels like, okay, if it doesn't, it's a failure. But if you see it as an experiment, then the pressure is off. It's like 'I'm just testing this. No big deal.' And you can go into it like non-emotionally non-attached. And it sounds like so much more healthy and enjoyable.

Wudan-Yeah, I've, I've taken my business through many experiments. One of my experiments last year, Pam—which might relate to the $2 a word thing—is I was like, okay, I just got back from Bangladesh. I realized I could be pickier about what work I took on, because I made quite a bit of money the year before and the year before that to act as a buffer. And I was like okay, three months. Let's see what clients I can bring on who, you know, can actually pay the effective hourly rate that I need, or $2, a word or more. And people came to me with all sorts of work. A lot of it did not work. Very little did. And you know what, that was amazing evidence that even in this "economic recession," and like horrible moment for freelancing generally, that like, there were specks of life, in my view, and my business's purview, that could work for me. And those are now relationships that I am intentionally nourishing. So that was a really important experiment. And I only said three months. Like, if it sucks at the end of three months, it's time for me to ramp things up or take assignments that might pay a little less. But I needed that experiment. And that experiment gave me evidence too, right? Like, there are still clients out there who can pay me what I need.

Pam- That is awesome. That is so great. I love to hear that. Was there anything else you' want to say about the balance between running two businesses that I didn't ask about?

Wudan-Yeah, I mean, I always say the hardest boundary to set is not with other people, but with yourself. There isn't peer accountability in my business, in the Writers' Co-op, in the way that there used to be. Everyone else I mostly delegate to, and sometimes bounce ideas off of, but it's not the same as being in a C-level position for a business. And so I think that's been challenging. I'm going to talk about this more, in a future episode of the season, about adopting a leadership mindset—one that I actually got from my spouse, who is a startup co-founder—which is have your own board of directors. And this helped me overcome my existential dread of not finding anyone who does what I do to a tee. But basically, I just started looking around and seeing: Who are the creatives, the creators, who also use either, you know, a newsletter or resources as lead generation for their coaching or consulting, but are very like-minded, and have similar values to me and can potentially help me figure out things that I'm working on in my business? And so I put together an extremely small group of board of directors. We just began meeting in January. We talked about our goals, and it's kind of like a peer accountability circle, but everyone else is an expert in things that I am not an expert in. And that difference of perspective, and having a trusted group of advisors, in a way, is so helpful. Because, you know, I think freelancing is such a wild journey. You can decide at any moment that there's something that you want to do, and there might not be a path carved out for you, right? Like, there might be a person who is very specifically aligned with you in one way, but not all the other ways, right? And then, so that's like, basically the conceit behind the board of directors, board of advisors, whatever you want to call it. But basically, yeah, just building people who you really trust. And it took me a second to realize that's what I needed.

Pam- Is your board of directors—is it like in a traditional organization where like, they serve the organization, which is you? Or is it more like a mastermind, where you're all helping each other in community?

Wudan-Yeah, both.

Pam- Both. Okay, that's super cool. But it's—okay. So both in that, like, it's organized around you, but you all kind of lean on each other, too?

Wudan-I mean, we're also helping each other out, right? Like—

Pam- Yeah.

Wudan-If somebody wants to grow a certain arm of their business, and not sure where to start, like, we're all kind of jumping in and saying we'd be so excited to post something on LinkedIn, right?

Pam- Mhm.

Wudan-Yeah, it's definitely very circular. And my goal for something like this is that everyone gets something out of it. Like, I'm very big on mutuality. And well, four-way mutuality in this case. Yeah.

Pam- I love that so much. Well, I love that you gave us a teaser for a future episode. And it seems like a good time to segue into the final question. As we dive into the new year, would you mind sharing a couple of your goals for 2024, including both professional goals and any—I know you have so many cool hobbies, like crocheting, hiking, cross country skiing—I would love to hear about what your plans are for 2024. You know, both work and fun-wise.

Wudan-Absolutely. So despite getting COVID, I really blew into this year with so much like New Year energy. I thought of the overarching theme of this season, which is the 'Year of Expansive Thinking,' and how to think really big about our businesses and ourselves and what we think is possible. And breaking out of our old habits of fear and really stepping up to the plate. It's a little contrary to the previous episodes, but it's based off of my last year of really ruminating on like, how to do a thing that you feel like nobody has ever done before. For me, that was running two businesses. And so I'm really excited about the upcoming season of the Writers' Co-op. I am most likely building up a third business by the end of this calendar year. Check in with me. I don't want to say too much about it here. But putting it on the podcast for accountability. And, you know, personally I need to get a new knee, kind of? Not like a knee replacement. But after two seasons of thru-hiking on the Pacific Crest Trail, and some strange injury last fall, it is time for me to kind of like, do a lot of PT, and injections and whatever my knee needs. So I'm a lot more conservative on what my personal goals are. But I also want to just make more space for personal writing. Kind of realizing that my brain is pretty crazy when I'm asleep. My dreams are—every weird dream where I wake up, and I was like, 'Oh, my God, what was happening in there?' I'm like this should be in a book of speculative fiction. I mean, I've been doing—I've been writing nonfiction for a decade now. And, am I getting a little bored? Well, the stories are a bit formulaic after all this time, and so I'm excited to experiment with different forms, make more room for personal writing. That's about it.

Pam- That sounds like plenty. I'm so excited to stay tuned and see what your third business is. I'm sure everybody else is too. Well, Wudan, thank you for giving me the chance to ask you the questions. This was really fun.

Wudan-This was great, Pam. I really appreciate you doing this. Thank you so much.

Pam- You're welcome.

Wudan-Thank you so much to Pam for co-hosting this episode. You can follow her on LinkedIn. I will drop a link in the show notes or learn more about her work at Pam-moore.com. If you are a longtime listener with audio experience and want to step in as a co-host in the future, please email me. That's at thewriterscoop2@gmail.com. This season of the Writers' Co-op is written and executive produced by me, Wudan Yan. Our producer is Margaret Osborne and editor is Susan Valot. Sign up for our mostly free Substack to be in-the-know about events, workshops, partnerships, and more. Sign up as an All-Access Patreon to get in on our super awesome psychologically-safe community of freelance creatives, who are always striving to help one another. You can join that at patreon.com/slashtwcpod, and I will talk to you all next time.